Author Topic: More Anti Austerity Gains  (Read 2010 times)

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Pete

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More Anti Austerity Gains
« on: May 13, 2012, 07:18:11 PM »
After several countries, notably Greece, react against the austerity measures, it's the turn of Germany. North Rhine-Westphalia re-elects SPD-Greens in bellwether election seen as a 'no' to any austerity measures in Germany - and, of course, France elects Hollande on an anti-austerity ticket.

My question is, what would happen if considerably more countries went this way, the collapse of capitalism and the world economy? Surely, if this scenario is possible, the ones at the top with billions behind them would be as screwed as the rest of us. After all, they need roads, airports, food, clothing, etc, etc, etc.

I know I have over-simplified the situation, but I am interested in other people's views on this possible scenario.
I started out with nothing and I've still got most of it left.

chesterfieldchris

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Re: More Anti Austerity Gains
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2012, 07:37:38 PM »
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Pete

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Re: More Anti Austerity Gains
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2012, 07:44:52 PM »
Good answer...  :-[
I started out with nothing and I've still got most of it left.

k4blades

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Re: More Anti Austerity Gains
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2012, 08:16:07 PM »
Anti austerity is just a popular bandwagon for politicians.  There will be some gains by parties and politicians that spout that they oppose all the cuts and want to see the end of these measures that are costing jobs etc etc...

The hard truth is that the austerity measures are needed.  Labours own chancellor has previously admitted that they wouldnt reverse a single decision already made by the coalition government here, because he understands that there simply is no money left.

If we did see anti austerity governments rising everywhere, then the rich would just leave en mass to whichever safehaven didnt want the shirt of their back just to pour into economies that want to blindly go on allowing people to believe they can have all the luxuries they want in life, regardless of whether they can afford them or not.

It wasnt the banks that got us into this mess alone.  The people sat in houses with 110% mortgages, watching the news on TV's they havent paid for, while sat on sofas that are on the never never for the next five years.
Spot on.

The problem is that in the eurozone, the "austerity measures" aren't really about paying off debts like it is in the UK and US, the motive is to keep the Euro going, sometimes meaning MORE debt, with the EU and IMF giving Greece more loans to pay off their existing loans. Now that really doesn't make sense, at that's why, in my opinion, the people of Europe are rejecting the measures. They all think they are going through this pain for the benefit of political ideology.
Greece, for example, is massively inefficient with its economy. That wouldn't be an issue if they had their own currency, they can do what they want, its their problem. Its an issue because they don't have their own currency and its the rest of us who have to fund them.

Pete

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Re: More Anti Austerity Gains
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2012, 08:30:02 PM »
Once again the right wingers avoid answering the question (except Chis in the third para) - we've all heard this stuff before times many.

I was curious as to what would happen if the anti-austerity mob gained power - which they seem to be at the moment - and thought it might make a good topic.

Please don't class me either way in this. I am a businessman who downsized three years ago to keep the ball rolling, who has to work his bollocks off to persuade other businesses that they need to speculate to accumulate, but after two years with a new government doing f*ck all for anyone except their mates, (and that's another whole thread) they have not inspired any confidence in industry and commerce. Absolutely no positivity coming out of Downing Street, just a weekly diet of sleaze and corruption.
I started out with nothing and I've still got most of it left.

chesterfieldchris

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Re: More Anti Austerity Gains
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2012, 08:45:47 PM »
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k4blades

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Re: More Anti Austerity Gains
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2012, 07:20:24 PM »
Pete, I hope you wasn't suggesting that I didn't answer your question, or don't on a regular basis, I debated with you my view.

I've raised the point myself on another thread about the backlash in Europe against the austerity measures. But I don't think people are objecting to capitalism. We are all the same, rich and poor, we want more stuff, better cars, longer holidays and so on. The banks when they lent all that money out, had to lend it to someone. But many people don't want to pay for it. In Greece for example, its typical for people to retire at 50 from what I understand. And tax fraud is rife, with millions of people, not just millionaires not bothering to pay income tax.
That just isn't sustainable. As it currently is in the Eurozone, near bankrupt countries are being kept afloat by richer neighbours who have ideological dreams of a single europe. But millions of the public don't share that view  and as I said in my other post, where as we in the UK tend to just shrug our shoulders, in Europe people are much more active in their protests and I think ultimately we may see some mini-revolutions. Germans won't want to keep paying through their hard work for the slacking off of the Greeks.
Normally when a country comes close to bankruptcy, it devalues its currency which at least buys it more time, as was the case in the UK in the 70s. But the Greeks can't do that because they have no control over their currency, but ultimately, they will go bankrupt.
What that really means is that someone else will benefit from their hardship as they take ownership of the debts, debts currently owned by the EU and the IMF, will end up in the hands of the Chinese who currently own billions of US debt, and practically own many African countries.
But the communist Chinese don't want to spread communism across the world, they want to spread their own version of capitalism, buying, and making stuff then selling it to the rest of us at a profit, making them even more richer.
So we have to take them on head on. Pay off our debts, and become more competitive so that we can compete with them and build a new global economy. That's happening already, capitalism isn't dead, its booming in many places around the world, recently Brazil took over us in the size of its economy and they are the worlds leading produces of loads of agricultural products; coffee, beef, orange juice, all sorts of stuff, and its all happened without agricultural grants as in Europe, hard work and little in the way of benefits, but its making them rich and as Chris has said, when people at the top get richer, people at the bottom get richer too.
So capitalism won't go away, its just that we will become third world as the world order rearranges.
If we don't want to be third world, we need to understand and adapt to what is happening in the world instead of clinging to old fashioned ideals about the state providing us with a big fat pension from the age of 50, etc, etc.
We are better placed for several reasons, we are more independent and flexible than most of Europe, our language is widely used, and we have history from the days of Empire, that often isn't seen as badly around the world as we view it ourselves.
We just need politicians with balls, and vision. (God help us then!)

I don't know if that answers your question, but its my opinion anyway.

Pete

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Re: More Anti Austerity Gains
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2012, 07:32:50 PM »
>> Pete, I hope you wasn't suggesting that I didn't answer your question, or don't on a regular basis, I debated with you my view.

Nope, not at all, I just like to keep things lively - don't you go all defensive on me.

Added:

>> My question is, what would happen if considerably more countries went this way, the collapse of capitalism and the world economy?
« Last Edit: May 14, 2012, 07:36:47 PM by Pete »
I started out with nothing and I've still got most of it left.

 

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