Chesterfield Online Forum
General Category => Politics => Topic started by: Pete on July 22, 2012, 05:15:38 PM
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£13trillion hoard hidden from taxman by global elite
Todays news has a story by James Henry, former chief economist at consultancy McKinsey and an expert on tax havens. He shows that at least £13tn – perhaps up to £20tn – has leaked out of scores of countries into secretive jurisdictions such as Switzerland and the Cayman Islands with the help of private banks, which vie to attract the assets of so-called high net-worth individuals.
Their wealth is, as Henry puts it, "protected by a highly paid, industrious bevy of professional enablers in the private banking, legal, accounting and investment industries taking advantage of the increasingly borderless, frictionless global economy".
Time to arm the Occupy movement with these bastard's details and AK47s? Maybe that's what it will take for folks to put humanity first as planet Earth and its inhabitants slowly die. I hope not, but I understand why it sounds tempting.
Why don't these selfish, greedy bastards put some of their trillions into reviving the world economy? The west is quick to slag off the tyrants that are being currently deposed for being murderous, torturing gits who siphon off foreign aid into their private bank accounts, yet our elite are just as bad.
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Just been reading this.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18944097 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18944097)
How about starting ChesterfieldOnlineBanking.org
People could send us their millions for hiding, for a small% fee, we could put this back into the economy. After costs ;-)
Oh hang on, as a bank, wouldn't we have to declare our assets to the Gov ?
So how's this work on an international level, hiding money.
Surely someone operating as a bank must conform to some global rules.
Or is that the problem, they're not ?
It's one hell of a lot of money doing nothing, wonder if they get interest on it :))
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Because the 'governments' of these countries don't have disclosure rules, hence why you put your money there.
The one thing that gets me is if you get to the point where you are hiding those sorts of sums of money what are you going to do with it? It must get to the stage where the interest alone is too much to spend???
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Absolutely! That's why I would tax to death anyone who owns more than a billion pounds.
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There can't be any 'interest' gained. Just a fee for hiding such a stupid amount of money.
Banks make money for using your money, and profit by it.
If the banks that are handling this huge amount of money are making a profit.
What are they spending and investing the money in?
Wiping out countries by the back door.
Will America be the dogs bo**ocks of all countries.
I know I can talk sh** at times, but I just don't see how they can hide that sort of money.
It's like a James Bond movie, world domination.
I own the world, right, what am I going to do with it?
Make myself more money I don't need.
Or start helping the people who do need it. Once I've overturned their goverment,
offered them assistance, at a basic level, then own them.
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Why do some people find the "greed" of rich people wrong, but not the greed of poor people. I've said it before, poor people, relatively speaking, rob the treasury of billions by buying their cheap fags and booze, etc....how come no-one disapproves of that tax dodging.
When I heard this story on the news I thought they, like so many, got it clearly wrong by saying "Govts are losing billions." WRONG, it is not theirs to lose.
If Mr. A, B or C has so many billions, that's his money, whether its from his hard graft, inherited, or pure good luck, whatever, its his money no one else's....and that would apply no matter how much or how little he actually had, what right has anyone got to take it away, he has every right to protect whats his.
And if Govt. X, Y or Z only collects a certain amount then it is they who lay the rules down and its up to the man with the money to follow the rules, as long as he does, its up to him where and what he does with his money. The Govt haven't lost anything, they just haven't gained as much as they might have. And the reason they don't increase taxes more is because they know whenever they do, it results in less income as everyone, rich and poor, looks for ways to save paying it.
So if you thing we don't have enough public money going round, instead of attacking the rich, who will eventually pull us out of this financial mess with their investments and job creation, and attack the Govt for the abysmal way they control spending.
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And by doing so you would have removed billions of pounds from charities and their dependants around the globe - committing thousands to death around the globe. Let us not forget the often vilified and hated Bill Gates, the epitomy of capitalism itself, holds the record for the largest donation to charity in history of over $4 Billion. But Im sure by taxing him to death, that money would have filtered its way through the efficiencies of the public sectors around the world and made it to the mouths of the needy.... ::)
Isn't it you who always talks about people paying on the same percentages?
$4bn to Gates is a drop in his considerable ocean.
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you want me to donate 50% of my net worth?
No problem
I think my current net worth of available income is about £4.50. Charity of your choice.
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and I refer you to my previous answer!!!!!
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You compared me to Bill Gates
He owns outright at least 1 $100m house. I have a sizeable mortgage on mine which I struggle each month to pay
He probably gets chauffered everywhere but if not he probably own a few nice cars (as well as the obligatory Prius for the days when he's saving the planet). My car is on its last legs,its net worth is approaching zero and when it does blow up I can't afford to replace it. Sadly because I have to be at work at times when public transport is at best sporadic its a bit of a necessity. You see certain peple who only want to work 9-5 expect me to be available outside of those hours so they can shop.
The council, gasman electric government etc etc want their cut each month.
If its ok with you I do like to eat at least once a week.
The ex wife still takes her cut for the kids.
I really don't need you to tell me I have problems thank you very much!!
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Well that's where we definitely agree. I don't begrudge paying my taxes - I like the infrastructure of this country to be in great form. What gets my goat is the amount of taxpayers money we currently spend on wars. Wars where people we don't know, or have a problem with, are slaughtered by the hundreds of thousands - men, women, children and babies.
And when we pull out the old loyalties and tribal traditions swing back in and we are forgotten.
So, when we are out of Afghanistan and Iraq, how much will the UK taxpayer have spent?
Now that's a question...
And obviously the follow up question would be, "what could we have spent that money on?"
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No takers?
Must admit I'm a little disappointed. :(
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Anyone like to enlighten my why they stopped doing CSE, GCE exams.
Then re-categarized them as GCSE's
Personally I think this was a backward step.
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The Nanny state decided it was too much pressure on the kids to have them study for 2 years and then have success and failure based on one 3 hour exam at the end of it. Much better to let them work towards it for the whole 2 years.
The fact that they learn nothing about pressure, deadlines and the rigours of the real world didn't seem to matter.
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Cheers JR. Your comment is appreciated ;)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Certificate_of_Secondary_Education (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Certificate_of_Secondary_Education)
And look who were in gov at the time of the change.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_1986_British_incumbents (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_1986_British_incumbents)
Did the tory's know they'd lose the next election, leave the country in turmoil, then gather the £££ this time round.
That is, after blaming the previous gov for all the demise.
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The education system has been dramatically dummed down. Teachers aren't as well educated as they used to be....we get letters from school with spelling mistakes on for example, nor do they have the same levels of discipline.
Add to that the mad idea that everyone should be aiming for a place in University, never mind the fact that they aren't educated well enough to attend, move the goal posts and let them in, then at least the Govt won't have to worry about finding jobs for school leavers, God forbid they should be encouraged to go out and get their hands dirty at 16.
That attitude mushroomed under Labour because they seem to think that the old system of only a few going to Uni was elitist while they believe in "inclusivity". Complete bollocks, of course, there is nothing wrong with leaving school young without a degree as long as you have a country that respects ALL types of work, such as factory workers, construction workers, etc, rather than thinking we should leave all that to foreigners while we all become advertising executives.
13 years of Blairism has a lot to answer for, but the blinkered left can't see it so constantly go on about how bad Maggie was...
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would the people who can't see further than the red rosette
I asked a genuine question. Did they forsee and prepare to cash in next time round ?
I'm starting to wonder if anything the Tories do would ever be seen as positive
What were you doing in 84/85 ?
I was 17 and backing the majority of UK miners, trying to save an industry for the future generations.
One of the below links looks like they're a bunch of grabbing batsards.
The other one looks like they were trying to help the country.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labour_Party_(UK) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labour_Party_(UK))
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_Party_(UK) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_Party_(UK))
Best put my rosette blinkers back on and wait for the flack ;)
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Easy to blame Thatcher for taking the miners jobs, when are people going to realise that it wasn't Maggie who stole their jobs, but the foreign miners across the world, producing coal at half the cost.
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So importing coal produced by slave labour was ok.
So much for being a self sufficient country.
Let's not look after our own, we'll take the cheap option and put thousands on the dole ::)
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Wow, what a thread. As usual gone way off topic, but that's the price of relaxed moderation… ;)
TBH I generally don't trust politicians of any persuasion.
I am no fan of the Labour or Conservative parties, I think Margaret Thatcher did untold damage and I also think Tony Blair should be tried for war crimes.
I can't describe myself as poor despite being on a low salary - but I object to having been lumped in with "poor people, relatively speaking, rob the treasury of billions by buying their cheap fags and booze, etc.". There are more honest than dishonest folks, but that may not suit some people's arguments.
>> the rich, who will eventually pull us out of this financial mess with their investments and job creation
Why don't they do it now? What are they waiting for? Or is that concept just wishful thinking?
I am also a huge fan of Bill Gates - people could learn a lot from that man on many subjects. A true hero.
>> Easy to blame Thatcher for taking the miners jobs, when are people going to realise that it wasn't Maggie who stole their jobs, but the foreign miners across the world, producing coal at half the cost.
Not quite true, as I remember, the coal strike was broken using foreign coal subsidised by their governments. Governments that probably thought it is better to have folks working supported by subsidies than to have them unemployed.
For a thread about trillions of pounds being hidden from the taxman it's sad to see no rational discussion, just childish bickering and gross exaggeration. Bits of this sound like ten year old school kids who have just been voted top of the class.
As for my views and opinions - this is a discussion forum and part of a mod's duties is to start threads where folks can have their say - so, like newspapers I post stories that are current. Just look at the Guardian, Mail and Telegraph sites - headlines look familiar? Stop bashing me for that, if it was left to you guys there would be no forum. How many threads have you started? Don't you think it would help everyone if you came up with some fresh topics yourselves for the good of the group? Or don't you care?
And for the record there is no FlyandPete, except that we were the two who went to the trouble of building a forum where subjects can be freely discussed and not snipped to death by over zealous moderators. Me and Fly are like chalk and cheese, but we seem to get on OK.
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Thats a good post Pete.
1) Yes, you do start a lot of topics, but they are always of a left leaning slant, which is why some of us may find it tedious. You don't have to agree with what the Govt are doing, but try basing some posts on facts. Constant whinging abouts cuts is daft, there haven't been any, public spending is increasing, the deficit is increasing. If you want to criticise Osborne do it for his failing to do what he said, not because he comes from a privileged background and went to a posh school.
2) In short, yes we should have a revolution, if that's what the topic is, but as I said before, it won't happen. But I don't want a revolution because I don't like the fact that someone is better off than me, I want a revolution because our politicians refuse to listen to the public...that applies to both sides, as I keep mentioning, it was Brown who slagged off one of his own voters because she mentioned immigration, but when those voters turn to a party that will discuss immigration, people like you accuse them of being right-wingers.
3) The idea that Govt. should subsidise coal is a joke and shows how little you understand economics. Apart from being against international law, the coal miner might like getting paid a lot for being inefficient but he wouldn't have been paid by the Govt, they would have been paid by me and you in our taxes, and most people object to paying for a more expensive version of something which they could get much cheaper. And why the miners, why don't the Govt pay me £500, irrespective of how my business runs, then I could work less hours, why don't they guarantee JR an extra £500 for his work at Sainsburys, its better than him having to go benefits.
The answer is because it leads to mass inefficiency, and will bankrupt the country which is exactly what happened in the 70s, which is why Maggie won so convincingly, people wouldn't trust Labour. And when they did, they repeated their crimes but instead of employing inefficient miners, they created banks of quangos, civil servants, etc....
As Chris keeps saying, if you want money, you need private enterprise to create that money. It doesn't grow on trees, and no-one should expect to given it for free.
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4) The rich will pull us out of this mess when they consider it is worth the risk which it isn't at the moment. The rich, and that includes big business who are sitting on billions in reserves, won't spend because they know what turmoil lies ahead when countries and banks go bankrupt, which they will with the Euro crisis and Govts failure to deal with debt/spending. They didn't get rich by being stupid, they know when and how to invest, unlike politicians.
And as for who's rich and who's poor.
Kids climbing over rubbish tips in India looking for scraps to live off because he has no home, education or health care is poor.
A man in China who has to work in a sweatshop for 80 hours a week for £5.00 and no rights is poor.
An African woman who risks getting Aids by having 10 babies because she knows 5 of them will die before the age of 2 is poor.
A teacher whinging about their pension rights isn't poor, they are just greedy.
Someone on benefits whinging about them being cut while they spend their days sat on their arses playing a game console on a flat screen TV isn't poor, they are just lazy.
And if the African womans husband wants to sell me a bag of coal which he has spent 15 hours a day digging up with his bare hands, and he offers it me cheaper than some whinger who resents the fact that "some Tory Toff" has got more than him, guess who I'm going to buy it from.
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1) >> Yes, you do start a lot of topics, but they are always of a left leaning slant
Then you start some topics with a right leaning slant - if you can find any.
2) >> as I keep mentioning, it was Brown who slagged off one of his own voters because she mentioned immigration - I'm not a Labour supporter - see above.
3) If you knew anything at all about Margaret Thatcher you will know that she had a personal vendetta against the miners union because of Scargill's success with his flying pickets that brought down Ted Heath's government. It's well documented, I'm surprised you never read about it.
>> if you want money, you need private enterprise to create that money.
Tell that to Lloyds bank. I've had a business account with them for 22 years. I have never gone over my overdraft and the last four years I have stayed in the black. So why did they cancel my overdraft last year? Because the bank doesn't want to take any risks, something businessmen like me do all the time.
I'll mention sucking eggs in another post. :P
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1) >> Yes, you do start a lot of topics, but they are always of a left leaning slant
Then you start some topics with a right leaning slant - if you can find any.
I'm not driven by constantly attacking other people, I just like correcting other people mistakes. ;)
I do start topics, but maybe I just don't have a smuch time as you.
2) >> as I keep mentioning, it was Brown who slagged off one of his own voters because she mentioned immigration - I'm not a Labour supporter - see above.
That wasn't the point I was making.
3) If you knew anything at all about Margaret Thatcher you will know that she had a personal vendetta against the miners union because of Scargill's success with his flying pickets that brought down Ted Heath's government. It's well documented, I'm surprised you never read about it.
Again, left leaning. Some would say she would have been glad of Heaths demise, it lead to her getting the job. Steel workers, dockers, etc, etc, would all claim she had a vendetta against them too, because to actually stop and consider the economics behind some of her decisions is asking too much when theres an axe to grind.
>> if you want money, you need private enterprise to create that money.
Tell that to Lloyds bank. I've had a business account with them for 22 years. I have never gone over my overdraft and the last four years I have stayed in the black. So why did they cancel my overdraft last year? Because the bank doesn't want to take any risks, something businessmen like me do all the time.
Proves my point, BofE have poored billions into the banks with QE to encourage lending, which they aren't doing because they are building up their reserves, google how much cash reserves Lloyds has, they will have the money but if things go belly up, hey may need bailing out, and then people moan because the banks are being bailed out. You can't have it both ways.
I'll mention sucking eggs in another post. :P
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@Cchris Re: pot/kettle
Every gov blames the one before. I meant did the last tory gov think 'Oh well', we lost this election.
We'll just have to wait till we get another term in office and make the rich richer again.
Just like I thought the last Lab gov would look after the working class, which, as far as I feel, they didn't do as much as I expected.
Re: The 84/85 strike. A little story into someone's life.
and those who chose to stand around fire pits shouting obscenities at those who went to work are still harping back and blaming Maggie for their p**s poor lot in life.
Men and women were fighting against a gov about pit closures. It was their lives the gov was messing about with.
You weren't there, didn't see it. Have you read it in a book, have you spoke to miners, asked their comments.
Have you studied it. Well here's my p**s poor lot in life. Probably started about the time you were leaving school.
I was working at the pit. Met someone, got a mortgage, house, car etc.
8 years after the strike, after earning good money for my toils in a dirty/filthy/damp/dark sometimes hell hole of a place,
I was made redundant. 1993. I got about 1 years wage worth of redundancy payment.
This was the same week my son was born, 7 week premature. This sort of puts you on a downer.
My partner at that time was suffering from medical problems and not working.
For the next year we plodded on, paying the bills, me looking unsucessfully for employment, and watching the money go.
I was going down even deeper.
I enrolled on a year long computer course, 9 to 5, in Sheffield, I lived in Bolsover so lots of commuting and costs, trying to gain some further qualifications to back up the numerous GCE and CSE's I'd attained at school. I'd done reasonably well at school and could have stayed on through sixth form, maybe even uni.
(Working at the pit had always been number 1 for me though. (Family tradition, plus a job straight from school.)
I stuck the year out, passed the NVQ, plus a C&G, still looking for employment, still no success.
By now I was feeling really low, 2 years without a job, a son with slight learning difficulties.
1995. My daughter was born.
She was born with Bilateral Choanal atresia. Operated on in Sheff Childrens Hospital at a day old.
Over the next six months we were to-ing and fro-ing to Sheff for more operations on her, doctors, specialists etc,
it all became too much, me and my partner split. She took the kids.
She got a council house.
I was getting the mortgage paid, but couldn't pay the bills on my own. The house was reposessed.
I'd lost everything. And had nothing.
Can't get much more down can I.
I finally got a part time taxi driving job. Over the next 6 months this turned into full time. A job's a job.
Then I met Our_Lass,
My life was back on the up.
1998, my dad died aged 53.
That was a serious blow, but I'd got Our_Lass for support.
'She', got me through it.
My life had been taking a downward spiral for 3 years after losing my job at the pit.
Why am I a tory basher, cos I hate with vengance the type of comment I quoted you as saying at the top of this post.
The miners and Scargill may have been wrong, perhaps the pit's weren't financially viable. I may be deluded.
But coming from someone who was 6 at the time ::)
Just for the record, I don't read any news papers, they're all full of sh**, I just start news threads from google news.
Irrespective of what paper they are from.
I don't always agree with Pete either. But I don't slag him off in public.
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I appreciate your reply Chris, deluded I might have been. And the other miners too.
'We' didn't see it that way then. It was our lives.
Perhaps we're still deluded 25 years later.
I learnt about Henry the Fifth in secondary school, but the person who taught me wasn't born in 1367. So I fail to see the relevance of that point.
I was taught about Henry VIII, and how he changed, or created, another religion to suit himself.
Don't the Tory party and the royals have some kind of connection.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_Party_(UK) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_Party_(UK))
Oops sorry. Wrong wiki link.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tory_(British_political_party) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tory_(British_political_party))
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>> We could easily open up the pits again...
Really, I thought they fell into bad repair quite quickly, especially prone to flooding.
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I don't fish. Our_lass does. ;)
So you're saying the Tory gov 'let' the miners strike for a year.
But were never going to back down ? Nice.
then we could easily open up the pits again and use our own resources to reduce our reliance on other nations for our energy. Thats something I would like to see.
Me too, So now you agree we could be self sufficient as regards coal. Why did they shut the pits then ???
Am I wrong in using the word hypocrite. ?
Just realised Pete has posted before me. Doesn't and wont change my mind. Or my thoughts.
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Cuba sounds nice - Caribbean Island. :)
North Korea is different story, it is an evil, really evil regime. Whether it will change under Kim Jong Un is anybody's guess.
Yep, the Caribbean might suit me - as George Galloway's cigar buyer. :)
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Sorry mate, didn't realise you came from a criminal background...
:)
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Ha! Love it :)
So you must be son of Derek Trotter...
Interesting concept
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And now you're a dad :)
You're call
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Seems to me though, as long as there are individuals or organisations that are doing better than others, you will cry foul and demand they be taxed or penalised in some other way to ensure that the gap between the rich and the poor is kept low.
All I cry for is fairness. Off shore bank accounts, tax dodge loop holes, do you call that fair ?
May I suggest a move to perhaps North Korea or possibly even Cuba. They have equality by the bucketload.
Don't fancy Cuba, or Korea, so we're off to Salou for two weeks on Friday, All Inclusive C:-)
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Perhaps if everyone were treated equally then the "rich" wouldn't feel the need to find the loopholes quite so much.
'Fairness', 'equally', we're nearly agreeing ;D
Pity we can't decide where to put the goal posts between us. The UK, sorted 8)
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The problem with coal is that its dirty, even if you ignore the global warming stuff, we've all seen the pictures of smog covered London, and the illnesses that went with it. Pre election and just after, the Tories were very keen on "carbon capture", which would address many of the issues. The waste from burning coal is collected and pumped out into the vast cavities under the North sea where we have removed the gas and oil. It would have been a good move politically as the Torys could then say they were opening up mining again in the UK. It would create loads of jobs and lessen our dependency on gas. Problem is, it needs billions spending on it and the Govt. can't afford it, and the private sector don't seem keen to spend the money either, though I'm sure something will happen further down the pipeline...excuse the pun.
This issue reminds me of a Question Time a couple of months back. Prescott was on for Labour, can't remember who was on for Cons, and then the various other members of the panel. A question came up about energy and the various other members all disagreed with each other, either in favour or against nuclear, in favour or against wind turbines, even Greenpeace can't decide which side of the fence they are on. But Prescott and the Con were in complete agreement in that its easy when you have no responsibility to say you don't approve of this or that, but when you are in a position of running the country and decisions matter sometimes you have to be pragmatic, and the only sensible solution is a mix of all the available options.
Prescott then went on to say that they, Labour, found it very difficult in the early years of Blair Govt. because what ever they wanted to do with energy, some opposition group would attack them, and bottom line for politicians is they don't like bad press. He said they came under immense pressure from mining unions and those on the left which resulted in in-activity.
The longer that in-activity goes on, the bigger the problem gets, and the more expensive the solution will be.
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Fly, you and I have very similar stories.
One thing life has taught me, in fact I had it engraained very early in life by my dad, is that you take care of yourself and your own, don't ask anyone for anything because you probably won't get it.
Whatever life has thrown at you, you are still going strong, like me. I might not have the wealth of a banker but I know I have a lot more now than I have had at previuos times in my life, and that has come from my hard work.
Also I think there is more important things in life than just your relative level of wealth.
Other things I learnt from my dad are pride and dignity, something I think is missing from a lot of young men these days.
As deacon Blue said;
There's a man I meet
Walks up our street
He's a worker for the council
Has been twenty years
And he takes no lip off nobody
And litter off the gutter
Puts it in a bag
And never thinks to mutter
And he packs his lunch in a Sunblest bag
The children call him Bogie
He never lets on
But I know 'cause he once told me
He let me know a secret
About the money in his kitty
He's gonna buy a dinghy
Gonna call her Dignity
And I'll sail her up the west coast
Through villages and towns
I'll be on my holidays
They'll be doing their rounds
They'll ask me how I got her I'll say
I saved my money
They'll say isn't she pretty
That ship called Dignity
And I'm telling this story
In a faraway scene
Sipping down Raki
And reading Maynard Keynes
And I'm thinking about home
And all that means
And a place in the winter
For Dignity
And I'll sail her up the west coast
Through villages and towns
I'll be on my holidays
They'll be doing their rounds
They'll ask me how I got her I'll say
I saved my money
They'll say isn't she pretty
That ship called Dignity
Set it up set it up set it up set it up set it up set it up
Yeah set it up again set it up again set it up again set it up again
Set it up set it up set it up set it up set it up set it up
Yeah set it up again set it up again set it up again set it up again
And I'm thinking about home
And I'm thinking about faith
And I'm thinking about work
And I'm thinking
How good it would be
To be here some day
On a ship called Dignity
A ship called Dignity
That ship
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Song reminds me of one of my old colleague who always said when he retired he would like to get a canal barge, and he has.
I tend to not get involved in a lot of political htreads now as if I tow the Labour line I get accused saying that just because it's the labor way and if I take to opposite stance there will also be comments.
In reality I have my own views and I don't say things just because they are Labour policy, I joined the Labour party because they were closest to my views (and local government was under attack from the government in the early to mid nineties)
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Cheers K4, you've made me feel quite humble :)
Whilst in town yesterday, as well as seeing the lad on the multistorey carpark roof, we bumped into my daughter.
She gave Our_Lass a hug and said, "Nice to see you again, it's been quite a while"
Then gave me a quick hug and introduced me to her friends, "This is my dad" :-*
Looks like my little girl is growing up and starting to make her own decisions in life :)