Author Topic: Vince Cable reiterates his opposition to 'fire at will' employment laws  (Read 13977 times)

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k4blades

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Re: Vince Cable reiterates his opposition to 'fire at will' employment laws
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2012, 10:13:00 PM »
Why do you constantly ask members to explain why they are wrong in their opinions ?

If you are so cock sure your opinions are better, go run the country .  .  .  .

What complete bollocks....

Pete said If anyone here thinks that we should do this to compete with India, China, etc. - they've got a fight on their hands...
I have a different view to Petes / Vince Cables, it is Pete who wanted a fight, I simply asked what ideas he had to solve the problems, isn't that the point of debating on a forum,. or are we all meant to agree with Pete. IS NO ONE ALLOWED TO HAVE A DIFFERENT POINT OF VIEW TO PETE WITHOUT IT BEING SEEN AS SOME SORT OF FIGHT, IS THAT PETES IDEA OF DEMOCRACY THEN, OR HAVE NONE OF YOU ACTUALLY GOT ANY BRAINS TO COME UP WITH IDEAS AND JUST HAPPY TO SPEND YOUR TIME MOANING AND WHINGING AT EVERYONE ELSES IDEAS.

So instead of turning it into some sort of personal attack on me by the mods, why don't you just answer the question about solving unemployment....or is that too much for your idea of a fight!

Slacker

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Re: Vince Cable reiterates his opposition to 'fire at will' employment laws
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2012, 07:06:09 AM »
Our wages are squeezed to we buy Chinese or Indian because their products are cheaper as their labour is cheaper.

To compete the wages in our manufacturing industry (not that there's much left) would have to be lower in which case these employees still have to shop around to buy cheaper. Downward spiral.

Someone needs to get a grip on the price of essential where we are getting ripped off (water, gas, electric) which of course all became privatised to encourage people as shareholder to vote Tory.

Competition? It's a joke. They  just take it in turns to put prices up.

therealjr

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Re: Vince Cable reiterates his opposition to 'fire at will' employment laws
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2012, 08:14:21 AM »
and once again:
It's Maggie's fault !!!!!
I'm not an Alcoholic. They go to meetings
I'm a drunk I go to the pub

k4blades

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Re: Vince Cable reiterates his opposition to 'fire at will' employment laws
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2012, 12:11:54 PM »
On a frequent basis I comment that I really don’t understand economics but correct me if I am wrong on this scenario.
I work for Sainsburys. I get paid a wage. My employer puts my wages up (cheers Justin!). In order to pay for this Sainsburys have to put up their prices. Slacker comes shopping to Sainsburys. He finds the prices have gone up so his standard of living has dropped. So he goes to DCC, asks for and receives a pay rise. This means my council tax is going to go up. My standard of living will drop. I need a pay rise. This scenario is played out by all the workers in the land and continues in a cycle. Correct me if I am wrong but that’s called inflation.
And Inflation is bad.
It also leads to Unemployment
Also bad
Now somebody is suggesting that the answer is paying people less. So Justin cuts my pay by 50% (In Sainsburys case I think I’m fairly safe but I will go with the scenario) Now in theory this means that Slacker will be able to get his weekly shopping for less. So he won’t mind when DCC cut his wages, which puts my council tax down, so I don’t notice so much that my wage was cut. Presumably this is reverse inflation which I assume is good and low unemployment which again I assume is good.
Now of course we get to the problem. In scenario one it is of course those nasty unions who demand higher wages and the idle worker who doesn’t produce enough that cause all the issues. Sack the lot of them!!
Except of course that in scenario 2 somebody somewhere isn’t going to play the game and instead of passing those savings on to keep everyone at the same level they are going to pocket those savings and widen the gap between the haves and the have nots.
But that won’t matter because they are the good guys, the ones who have created all these jobs and generated the wealth.
Of course the health service will collapse because people won’t be able to look after themselves properly with good diets (and they won’t be able to afford the private health care). The Police won’t be able to cope with all the crime caused by people having to steal just to feed their families not to mention the regular riots by disaffected people. Not sure how councils will cope with all the people who need re housing because the banks have foreclosed on their mortgages.
But it won’t matter because everyone will be working thanks to those nice people who generated all this wealth.

In scenario 1, pay keeps going up. Great on the face of it. But its not just Sainsburys that have to put prices, so do all their suppliers, Hienz, Kelloggs, the milk farmers, whoever....so do all the petrol retailers, so do the gas and electric companys. To make matters worse, the factory down the road can no longer compete in a global market so closes, leading to more unemployment benefit being paid, and taxes have to go up. Before long, Jr working at Sainsburys has an extra £10.00 a week in his wage, but the cost of living has gone up by £20.00 so he's actually worse off by £10.00. That might not matter to the banker who earns £100k a year, but its a hell of a lot to the dinner lady on £100 a week. Which is why every single study into it has shown that since the introduction of the minimum wage, the gap between rich and poor has increased, the poor have become relatively poorer. And if it was a simple as just sticking a few extra quid onto someones wage, why not set the minimum wage at £20.00 an hour and eradicate all low wages. Because absolutes mean nothing, its relativity that counts.

In scenario 2, people rioting because they can't afford food??An interesting theory but I prefer to go on evidence. Before the minimum wage, under that nasty Tory woman, we didn't have people not being able to afford food, quite the opposite, we had years of sustained economic growth. In fact the closest thing we've had to the doomsday scenario described was under the previous Labour Govt in the 70s, with runaway inflation, bins not being emptied, dead laying unburied and the country being held to ransom by the unions. Unless of course, you include last years riots where the people were so starving, they couldn't help but loot all the shops for flat screen TVs and trendy trainers. And if your memory doesn't go back so far, then just look whats happening in Europe.
The whole idea of mini jobs, which is the main thing the coalition seem to be discussing and in favour of, (except Vince) originates in Germany. They started in the early 90s after east and west re-unified, putting Germany in severe financial trouble, and leading to severe austerity. So they slashed regulation and employment taxes, with the sole intention of getting people working. was there rioting on the streets, was there food shortages, no. Instead Germany has returned to the economic power house that it once was, keeping the rest of Europe afloat with its strong economic position, not only having strong growth in Germany, but also keeping Ireland, Italy and Spain afloat, not to mention the Greeks, where there has been rioting for food. So the arguments in Scenario 2 just doesn't fit in with the evidence, and its evidence I try to base my political judgments on.

chesterfieldchris

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Re: Vince Cable reiterates his opposition to 'fire at will' employment laws
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2012, 01:23:51 PM »
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therealjr

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Re: Vince Cable reiterates his opposition to 'fire at will' employment laws
« Reply #20 on: September 10, 2012, 02:00:42 PM »
ok Chris I will go along with you.
Now answer me this.
The Government gets this legislation through.
Suddenly your company owner realises he can get away with paying the rates of 3 4 5 and 6 pounds to his workers
40 x (18) £720
NI £86.40
overheads £400

Gross profit £1293.6
tax £310.46

net profit £983.14

Now is your owner going to think Oh I'm making too much profit I can reduce the costs of my units to £22.50. Or is he going to rub his hands together in glee and order a new Porsche? So if Labour are fighting for those at the bottom (and there's 4 of them) then the Tories are fighting for the one at the top (and there's only one of him)
I'm not an Alcoholic. They go to meetings
I'm a drunk I go to the pub

k4blades

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Re: Vince Cable reiterates his opposition to 'fire at will' employment laws
« Reply #21 on: September 10, 2012, 02:18:21 PM »
Initially, he might rub his hands in glee, until he sees that chinese imports of his product  are selling for less, so to compete he has to drop his prices. He can afford to do this as his costs are lower, and still stay in business. And thats the real point of our economy that many Labour supporters don't get. They are not in competition with this countries bankers to get a better living, they are in competition with the millions of other people around the world to get a basic income.
(And isn't that the model supermarkets work too, driving down the cost of milk and if our farmerrs don't cut their margins, they will simply buy it from abroad.)

k4blades

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Re: Vince Cable reiterates his opposition to 'fire at will' employment laws
« Reply #22 on: September 10, 2012, 02:21:12 PM »
Nor have you mentioned the fact that as his profits have increased, so has his tax bill, benefitting the NHS, schools, etc, or allowing the employees income tax bill to be reduced.

therealjr

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Re: Vince Cable reiterates his opposition to 'fire at will' employment laws
« Reply #23 on: September 10, 2012, 02:27:35 PM »
Nor have you mentioned the fact that as his profits have increased, so has his tax bill, benefitting the NHS, schools, etc, or allowing the employees income tax bill to be reduced.

Chances are his tax bill won't increase because his accountant will find a way for him to pay less tax.

As to your other theory he was making £684 profit competing against the Chinese, he wasn't going to be happy making £503 profit against the Chinese imports but would be happy screwing his employess and making more profit.
I'm not an Alcoholic. They go to meetings
I'm a drunk I go to the pub

k4blades

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Re: Vince Cable reiterates his opposition to 'fire at will' employment laws
« Reply #24 on: September 10, 2012, 02:33:52 PM »
And another thing, as his profits have increased, he thinks, "this is easy money, I'll expand the factory" so he takes on another 4 employees, there for helping those at the bottom even more.
Again I base my views on evidence, for example the business practices of Sainsburys, profits have grown, so they open more branches and hire more staff. (Or is Justin just sat there rubbing his hands with glee)

The problem with ideology is that facts often get in the way.

chesterfieldchris

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Re: Vince Cable reiterates his opposition to 'fire at will' employment laws
« Reply #25 on: September 10, 2012, 03:01:39 PM »
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therealjr

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Re: Vince Cable reiterates his opposition to 'fire at will' employment laws
« Reply #26 on: September 10, 2012, 03:14:19 PM »

Given that the private sector is the only cash generator in the country, can you advise whether A, you would tax more to raise this cash (and what areas would you tax - please feel free to explain your working with examples rather than "tax the rich"), or B, cut spending in other areas. (in which case what areas, and how would these cuts release the cash required?).

Before I do would you please explain to me why 'Tax the rich' is not deemed to be a perfectly reasonable answer? Or is it simply that because they can all follow your stated example of getting on the next plane out of here this wouldn't work?
I'm not an Alcoholic. They go to meetings
I'm a drunk I go to the pub

chesterfieldchris

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Re: Vince Cable reiterates his opposition to 'fire at will' employment laws
« Reply #27 on: September 10, 2012, 03:40:46 PM »
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therealjr

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Re: Vince Cable reiterates his opposition to 'fire at will' employment laws
« Reply #28 on: September 10, 2012, 03:57:31 PM »
The poor are already taxed, what's your point.

So you're saying that the 'rich', these people who will generate all this money and all these profits, will only do so if they are allowed to keep more of it and that it doesn't matter if they do this by cutting the terms and conditions of millions of others. So the 1% get richer and the 99% get poorer.
They won't make investments quote in order to maintain their current lifestyle, but they are quite willing to lessen the lifestyle of their staff in the pursuit of greater profits which you want them to be allowed to keep for themselves.

As to France theres a big difference between us and them. Go to France and spot how many people drive Renaults, Peugeots or Citroens. How many French people holiday somewhere other than France? How many French people drink Australian or Californian wine. The French work less than us, they retire sooner than us, they demand higher pensions and standards of living in retirement than us. They take a very insular view of their economy. I'd expect their 'rich' to pay up.

Finally Answer me this. If a 'rich' man came along and said I want to build a huge building costing millions and as a result I'm going to be employing hundreds of tradesmen and keeping dozens of other companies in business supplying the construction you'd presumably be on the sidelines applauding this man as generating the business needed to stimulate the country.

But if the Government says they are going to do exactly the same thing by building new roads, schools hospitals etc etc then this is a BAD thing because its coming out of the public purse and your 'rich' man isn't making vast profits.
Isn't that Hypocritical?
I'm not an Alcoholic. They go to meetings
I'm a drunk I go to the pub

k4blades

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Re: Vince Cable reiterates his opposition to 'fire at will' employment laws
« Reply #29 on: September 10, 2012, 04:27:40 PM »
Theres nothing wrong with Govt spending on infrastructure, IF THEY'VE GOT THE MONEY. The problem is because the last Govt spend far more than they ever had, infrasttucure spending would have to come by means of debt.
Getting into debt is fine for a private individual, he may get turned down for a loan, or if he gets it and things go wrong, its his assets at risk. When Govt gets into debt, that debt is just passed onto other taxpayers in the future, with substantial amounts being paid in interest, thus causing more harm to the public purse in the long run.
Whats that saying about Jam tomorrow?

 

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