Market Hall toilet access

[Old Cruser]

Daughter and I have been into both toilets today and I took some photographs which I wil put on tomorrow.

Whilst there I had to help an elderly lady get out of the main door to the toilets as the door was too heavy for her to pull open.

Also some congestion in the squashed entranced when Daughter and I were just coming out of toilet and two ladies wanting to come in.
No one could move!!

So - one lady (elderly with walking frame) had to use the ordinary ladies toilet whilst the other held the door open for daughter to exit - and me---- I just hovered below the ceiling. 

[Old Cruser]

I'll post the pictures tomorrow and wil try and explain where I am coming from in my opinions of the toilets.

I'm looking at the heavy doors to be opened by wheelchair users who are alone and wanting to use the toilets also you wil see the 'height' of the handles to the main doors.Not good if a person is sitting in a wheelchair.
 
The changing place toilet now has a baby changing mat fixed to the slab in there (it wasn't there on our first visit )
 This gives me the impression that it is purely for babies to be changed and not disabled people.

 There is no ceiling track hoist.

I think DCC are on a totally different wave length to me on disabilities.

When I have posted the photo's tomorrow with explantions of my points see what you think and go public with them then if you want.

[Old Cruser]

The entrance doors to the lobby into the toilet.
This is a heavy door to pull open
Note the height of the handle.
Many people in wheelchairs also have weak upper body strength
To pull open a door like this and actually be able to 'get through it' will be extremely difficult or for most impossible





This is the inside of the lobby to the toilets.
Note the width
There are also ladies and gents doors to the left the accessible toilet is straight in front.
Once in the lobby we are 'in the way' of people trying to get in/out of the other toilets
If the accessible toilet is occupied wheelchair user then has to back up and return outside of the lobby.
Again only possible with support of someone else who can open the door

[Old Cruser]

I'll pick away at the photo's through today folks.
Be back later

[Old Cruser]

This is the slightly better one of the two it has a bit of room for one support worker to help with toileting if needed by the wheelchair user.

It is the one I presumed would be for maybe a ceiling track .
It is obviously meaning 'baby changing' and not changing places for the more disabled as I had presumed, as since my first visit there has been a changing pad fixed to the slab.

Actually I doubt there would be room anyway for hoisting in here.

The wheelchair user has to back up and turn in a small space to exit.

No idea how someone using a larger wheelchair such as the 4X4's we see around would manage.



Obviously the changing pad for babies
The good thing about this is that is has sides to it for obvious reasons

[Old Cruser]

This is the same toilet with a wheelchair user in, it clearly shows the space for support worker (only one) to get down the side to assisst transfer.

[Old Cruser]

This is the one we first used.
The toilet was occupied when we went into the lobby which is more square than the first toilet lobby I have shown.

Even so we were trapped, people coming in/out of the ladies/gents toilets. We were in the way and no one could move.
Fortunately, the lady in the accessible toilet came out with a small child and no wheelchair, so she squeezed past us and we went inside thus freeing the lobby space.

Notice the position of the toilet how narrow the space gets.
No room for assistance by support worker.

Since our first visit one of the bins have been moved to the side of the toilet.
Both bins were originally in the turning space, making it difficult for the wheelchair user to turn round and open the door.

There is now also paper towels in this toilet, on our first visit there was nothing to dry our hands on.




Notice the two doors opposite, any wheelchair user here will obstruct people trying to get out.
It's a tight squeeze.

[Old Cruser]

Same toilet as the one above, here I stood at the back near the toilet cistern.
It was difficult to get a photo because of the space, however I think the position of the wheelchair in relation to the door is maybe a good indication of the size of this toilet.



This gives a bit better indication of the width where the toilet is situated.

[Old Cruser]

 
Just spent ages finishing my conclusions/ opinions off on the 'other thread' and couldn't post it 

[Old Cruser]

It's obvious DCC are using the age/ structure of the building to justify the step up to the outlets on one side.
Personally I can't see why these outlets couldn't have displayed their goods as on the other side, they wouldn't then be discriminating anyone and maybe their sales would go up?

So I will move on to my own thoughts and opinions of the toilets.

Generally accessible toilets will have a slightly lighter door with lower handle for easy reaching and opening.

My daughter used to use the toilet on the outside of the old style Market Hall which was accessed by a radar key.
Ok it was old but plenty of room and was kept clean.
Now she can't access the new ones!!

Why couldn't one set of toilets for ladies/gents have been placed say near the cafe.

In the area of the other toilets there could have been one or two (depending on space ) accessible toilet/s each with just one door entrance into the toilet and with more space inside - preferably with a handle which is reachable for wheelchair users?

I don't think enough thought went into this.

They are adequate for disabled people who don't need a wheelchair but need help changing as obviously the same space isn't required.

Changing Places - as they have been named - just baby changing places to me, wheelchair users haven't been included.

Very disappointing!

[Fly]

As a follow on from this thread about the Market Hall's interiour, http://chesterfieldonline.org/index.php/topic,3930.0.html
Here's a copy of the the email reply I finally received from Cllr Amanda Serjeant.
Wasn't sure about posting it public but noticed this bit at the end.

Under the Data Protection Act 1998 & the Freedom of Information Act 2000 the contents of this
email may be disclosed.

I refer to the concern raised by one of your forum members about accessibility to the refurbished Market Hall.

During the design and planning process for the refurbished market hall we commissioned an access audit report that looked at all aspects of accessibility to ensure we did everything we could feasibly do to improve these issues.

However, it is important to point out that the Market Hall is a grade two listed building and also an existing building so the accessibility and equalities standards required under the Disability Discrimination AcEquality Act 2010 differ from those needed in a new building.

The nature of an historic building means that some changes which we would have liked to make are not possible. (For those with a more technical knowledge of the subject – this is a requirement of the 2004 version of Approved Document M (AD M).

However, the access audit report recommended a substantial number of improvements to accessibility that could be feasibly provided. This work has been done to:

•   Make all main entrance doors open and close automatically
•   Provide wider lifts with correct door width, controls and audible/visual warnings
•   Provide public toilets on the ground floor with a designated accessible toilet
•   Provide a changing place toilet (ie a toilet with extra features and space to enable people with multiple disabilities or serious impairments to use toilets comfortably)
•   Provide access by a ramp to the cafe

In addition to this work we have also significantly improved the accessibility to the upper floors of the Market Hall. Signs throughout the building have also been carefully considered to ensure maximum clarity. 

However, certain issues could not be addressed without major structural work that would not be reasonable under the terms of the access and equalities requirements given the age of the building.

The building is on a sloping site with the retail area having significant ramped access to make the mall areas accessible. As a result of the sloping site and structural requirements some of the stalls in the retail hall have stepped entrances. It is therefore not possible to change the floor levels of the shop floor relative to the mall ramp surfaces.

However, we have improved the colour contrast between the shop floor and the mall floor leading up to it to help highlight there is a step.
Through good customer service Stallholders can, and do, assist anyone unable to fully access the units.

We work with disability and accessibility groups to improve access issues across Chesterfield through our Equality and Diversity Forum. Members of the forum have told us they are pleased with the improvements given the restrictions on the building, particularly the introduction of the changing place toilet.

I hope the above illustrates that we undertook all feasible options to improve the accessibility of the Market Hall.

Yours sincerely


Cllr Amanda Serjeant
Executive Member Leisure, Culture and Tourism
Chesterfield Borough Council

[Old Cruser]

Understand what you mean Fly.
 I have had letters from MP's in some of the campaigns regarding awareness of the welfare reforms but haven't been able to share them.
Actually I had one yesterday  (House of Commons ) in relation to the blind/ partialy sighted and how the new assessments lets them down.
All about banging on doors and letting them know it's unjust

[Slacker]

Worth writing directly to CBC I think

[coldcomfortfarm]

Old Cruser and all.  Firstly I am not too sure on the new market hall myself but this thread is about the access toilets.
I have designed many toilets with disabled access myself and as a designer / architect we have to follow strict rules when designing and there is not much scope to make it better.
Have a look at Approved Document M - Access to and Use of Buildings.  I would put money on it they comply to the standards.
I am not saying they cant be improved upon
http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/buildingregulations/approveddocuments/partm/approved


As for the door its a simple turn of the knob to alter the strength, I would guess as its been used its drifted out of tolerance slightly.  Again these doors need to shut as now they are fire doors.

I hope this provides more information to make an informed complaint.

 

[Old Cruser]

Hello CCF and welcome to the forum.

I value, respect and welcome any help, advice and added information anyone including yourself brings to this discussion.

Your advice on the outer doors are interesting and certainly something which maybe could be looked at.

During our visit last Friday I had to help an elderly lady get back out of the outer toilet door near the cafe.
She had managed to pull the door open but couldn't then hold it open to exit. I held it for her so she coud leave, as she went she said 'it's a bit heavy' - which it is.

The other problem of course is the height of the handle.
Anyone in a sitting position would possibly struggle getting out - to  actually reach the handle, pull the door open and hold it there whilst in a wheelchair - it's not easy and as I have said my daughter has no chance of getting out of the lobby.

To enter she woud have to push it with her feet whilst moving forward, some wheelchair users as you will be aware will not have this strength  in their feet/legs.

I am heartened that you consider that it may be possible to improve upon what has already been done.
I am sure you have ideas of your own as to what these could be.

Thanks for your input